A post full of questions?

[adiva_calandia]

Waaaaait wait wait.

Are Sherlock fans getting up in arms about Elementary just because they think it's a rip off?

. . . Did nobody notice Guy Ritchie's Sherlock Holmes coming out before Sherlock and making beaucoup money and no doubt paving the way for Moffat and Gatiss pitching a Sherlock Holmes adaptation?

Has nobody noticed that this is how Hollywood, and indeed most creative media, works? You know, that thing where execs are really leery of spending money on something that's not a sure thing and so once a concept proves it can make money a whole bunch of similar things will inevitably pop up? Does no one remember that time we had all the zombie movies possible because things like Shaun of the Dead started to become hits? Or that time Law & Order hopped over the pond and gave Freema Agyeman a wig?

I mean, is that what's going on here? Or are people ticked off about Elementary for other reasons? Like Watson being a WoC. Please tell me it's not that?

Comments

[innerbrat]

I think that some fans are of the opinion that being set IN MODERN DAY means that Sherlock counts as original? Therefore Elementary = rip off of modern day adaptation? IDK, I've seen people talk about Elementary as an American remake in the vein of The Office, Being Human &c

Also the new Watson is a failed doctor, not a qualified doctor or ex-soldier, which changes the character somewhat?

AND ALSO there are definitely people complaining that Watson cannot be a WOC. But there are people complaining for other reasons too.

[campkilkare]

As I understand it, Lucy Liu as Watson only happened as a response to the controversy. It was originally more of a complete by-the-numbers ripoff of the BBC update--not just "another Sherlock adaption" and not just "another Sherlock in the modern era adaptation," but a very clear attempt to remake that exact series on another network without paying the people who developed the show for it. The controversy and, uh, rumored lawsuits led to a retooling, including Lucy Liu as Watson.

[adiva_calandia]

Aaaaahkay, that is rather sketchier. I thought it was a bandwagon-jumper, not a remake. That does make the fans' annoyance more understandable.

[campkilkare]

Well, that is CBS's position, that it was not intended to be a deliberate remake. It just... was a really hard position to defend, before the retooling.

[campkilkare]

...in part because--and this is the most important part, which I left out because I'm an idiot and forgot until I refamiliarized myself with the series of entertainment news posts from the AV Club--CBS originally approached Moffat about adapting his show, and when they got turned down they just happened to spontaneously get their own idea for a totally, totally different show based on the same public domain source.

[sdelmonte]

All I know is that purists hate all of the above. And presumably also hated those films made during WWII where Holmes fought Nazis. And probably also hate all the pastiches.

[misslucyjane]

What John said. I love the idea of Lucy Liu as Watson, but I hate that they've taken away the solider aspect. That's such an important part of of Watson's character.

I'm willing to wait and see. The cast is fantastic so far, but what they do with it is going to be the interesting part.

[aberration]

Ahahaha, you have all of my thoughts on this. To be honest, I'm not really that sympathetic to Moffat or the BBC on this. Oh no someone is copying off the same public domain thing you did. Elementary may suck or not, I don't know, but it's hard for me to get too roused about that.

(And to be clear here, I'm saying this completely aware that yeah, they're copying off the "modern retelling of Sherlock Holmes" idea. I have no doubt CBS got the idea from the BBC series. I just still don't have much sympathy, because, again, copying off the same public domain thing, and modern update is not the most original notion ever. When Sherlock is good, it's because of the execution, not the idea.)

And there are people that are unhappy about Watson being a WOC, stuff like it meaning there HAS to be romance between Holmes and Watson now and things like that. Because that is what women are around for, I guess. And frankly, a lot of not so subtle ZOMG-but-he's-a-white-dude, not withstanding those other times this source has been copied off, when he wasn't. It does make me quite grumpy.

[campkilkare]

The thing is that they didn't just get the idea from the BBC series; they specifically approached Moffat and the BBC about making an American version of their show. When they got turned down, Elementary popped up shortly after, and has been retooled constantly ever since in response to threats from the BBC.

It doesn't really say anything about whether it's going to suck or not, but the fact that it is literally as ripped off as they could get away without being sued, which range they determined experimentally by changing the show until the BBC stopped threatening to sue them, has created a lot of sight-unseen ill will. As it is now, I'm sure the show only bears a passing "they're both modern updates" resemblance; but that doesn't I want to support creators or a network who had to be forced at the business end of a lawsuit to do the right thing.

[aberration]

I'm aware of the history. I still don't care. I don't blame people for not liking it sight-unseen on that basis (unlike the Watson thing), but I personally just don't have much sympathy on the issue. I've seen a whole lot of actual IP theft (including the just-as-recently CBS attempt to create a rip off of The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo, which actually has been cancelled), but in this case, the bottom line is there was a different source that they're both stealing from, though in that case the stealing is completely legal (as, don't get me wrong, I think it should be). I just don't have as much sympathy for creators who complain when someone else steals from the same thing they did.

[campkilkare]

In turn, I think there is a pretty huge difference between a) complaining that someone stole from the same thing as you did (even as a cash-in on the publicity you've created) and b) complaining that someone stole specifics of your interpretation and tried to pass it off as their own re-working of the same source material. The former happens all the time--witness the two Snow Whites coming out this year--while the second is actionable and pretty sleazy. I don't have sympathy for Moffat in particular--his bank account is orders of magnitude bigger than mine, he doesn't need my heart to break for him--but I do think the people behind this show are being pretty duplicitous.

[aberration]

I guess, to be 100% honest, I'm seeing what you're characterizing as "pretty duplicitous" as "how this often works." If I were to boycott the producers of any media that engaged in sleazy practices to basically avoid having to pay for rights or royalties, well, I don't think I'd have a lot of corporate media sources left. My personal favorite at the moment is Sony/Columbia Pictures stealing the story of a movie they'll be releasing in the coming months from a novel, relying on the fact that copyright claims by individual authors against distributors/studios are almost never successful due to the comparative resources each has.

So, yeah, it's shady. And I get why people wouldn't like it or want to want to watch it on that basis. I guess I just don't find it particularly shadier than what generally goes on with these kinds of transactions (or surprising that CBS would be all "hey is there a way we could do this without having to pay money"). And given my disinclination against treating BBC as a wholly original corporate author, those particular facts still don't really sway me very much.

[wakeupnew]

I get what John is saying above, but from what I've seen, some of the outrage on Tumblr (not all of it, but quite a bit) has very uncomfortable racist misogynist undertones. A number of objections that I've been seeing are actually "WHAT NO WATSON IS NOT AN ASIAN WOMAN!!!" complaints; pictures of John Freeman up against Lucy Liu with 'one of these things is not like the other' captions, etc.

Also there have been complaints that Elementary is copying Sherlock's wardrobe, which are the funniest to me; I was unaware that Moffatt copyrighted scarves and sweaters!

[olliefree]

I am not reading other comments before commenting, so possibly/likely said already - CBS approached the BBC generally and Sherlock's producers specifically asking if they could make an American version of Sherlock. To which they said "hell no," and CBS changed the name to Elementary and went forward anyway. BBC/Producers say they are "keeping a close eye" on it. That's what pissed me off the most.

And then they went and cast the actor who was quite literally playing the same roles as Ben on stage just last year, which made everybody go.... "REALLY?!? Who the fuck do you think you're kidding?"

I am seriously meh about Lucy Liu as Watson, not because she's a woman, or a WoC, well, sort of, but in the fact that it's generally the role that is, in fact, more likely to become the caring-for type, and if they were going to fuck with genders, I would've rather seen a female Holmes than a female Watson. Or hell, make both of them chicks. Plus, with my utter lack of faith in US Network Television, I'm pretty much assuming that there'll end up being an attraction/relationship plotline of some sort, and it annoys me that I feel like I can go ahead and assume that about a show that has male/female characters as the leads, but that the same characters with male/male leads (or female/female, though it's less uncommon than it was) it's taboo.


There's much more to why I'm cranky about it than that, but those are the basic highlights. It's more like, for me, I started out cranky because of the moving forward even when the producers said no, and just sort of went downhill from there.

[vivien]

I personally don't care to watch an American adaptation of Sherlock Holmes, no matter who's in it. It would be like an American adaptation of

Dr. Who

- Just Not Right. American versions tend to do things to British sources that make me cringe (not having a thing to do with specific casting in this case, btw).

Besides, if I

do

want to watch an American adaption, I'll just watch old episodes of House.

[sophistry]

I started out feeling mildly eyebrow-raise-y towards CBS' roll-your-own-Sherlock approach, but the collective behaviour of Sherlock fandom on the subject has made me want to actively support Elementary.

Soooo.

Yeah.

:D?

(My personal favourites are the arguments I've seen that casting Watson as a woman is homophobic. Like, yeah, I'll roll my eyes if female!Watson is what suddenly makes it ~acceptable~ to include a Holmes/Watson romance, but guys, come on. Have you WATCHED Sherlock? The reigning champion of tee-hee-no-homo queer erasure, where gay ladies fall for Sherlock Holmes? Shyeah, sorry if I don't think recasting an iconic white male character as a woman of colour is somehow less progressive than more Straight White Dude Adventures.)

[silveraspen]

My personal favourites are the arguments I've seen that casting Watson as a woman is homophobic.

Unfortunately, I was drinking water when I read that. It's been a while since I had an actual spittake.

I think I'm just going to go ... anywhere but modern!Sherlock!fandom for a while.

[rowanberries]

Oh, fandom.

Yeah, all the comments above are why I tend to watch fandom from a distance and occasionally reblog stuff rather than actively participating.

I'M DOING MY OWN RESEARCH AND I HAVE A BOOK OF FANLETTERS TO SHERLOCK HOLMES THE CHARACTER, YOU CAN'T TAKE THAT JOY AWAY.